Let’s get real. The rhetoric is starting to get out of hand. We’ve got people equating having a book contract to being a slave. I don’t think slaves signed a contract or got paid or sat around in pajamas and typed. It’s insulting to the legacy of all whose ancestors endured it and also to the millions who are currently enslaved around the world. And then we’ve got those trumpeting the American credo of “doing it all yourself”. Well, if you’re truly an indie author, you aren’t even giving Amazon 30%, because, you know, they’re the biggest ‘man’ out there. You should be selling your books all by yourself. And many of the flagship authors everyone trumpets as the pinnacle of success in the indie world are now working for Amazon, St. Martins or other “overseers”, apparently bowing to the vicious whip as they cash their checks.
And then agents are demons. And agents who are publishing are un-ethical demons. Except some dumb authors seem all right with it. In fact, many ‘dumb’ authors who happen to be doing it seem pretty happy with it. Seems those who aren’t doing it are very unhappy with others doing it. Maybe because they don’t have the option? I remember the huge outcry in SFWA when George Lucas decided to go with flat fee payments to Star Wars authors instead of royalties. After all—it was his universe they were writing about. It was the end of being an author as we knew it, plenty of authors wailed. Except I noticed none of the wailers were writing Star Wars books. Those people seemed pretty happy with their paychecks. Ever notice no one ever writes a letter to the editor about what they, themselves, should stop doing or not do? It’s always the other person needs to stop doing what we disapprove of. I’ve said some pretty dumb things and had to apologize for them (can we say Carina exclusive, sorry Angela James? Konrath is full of it about numbers, sorry Joe?) and also change what I’m doing. And I’ve been pretty public about it.
We’ve got Tobias Buckell calling some self-publishing people “a raging fuck wad.” On a blog, that really isn’t a blog, since he bravely turned his comments off so he could focus. That’s rich. The irony overwhelms. If you really want to focus and not have distractions, stop cursing at people publicly and just write. So he’s saying people who rant about indie publishing are raging fucks wads, while cursing them out. He’s certainly entitled to put his comments out there. I give him more credit than the many who comment anonymously. On the other hand, once we put things out into the internet, we reap what we sow.
We’ve got self-publishing people rabidly attacking, sort of Walking Dead attack, anyone who pursues traditional publishing. Saying they are idiots who are bowing down to The Man. Yeah. With advances, distribution, editing, publicity, yada, yada, I still had the bisque. And I’ve had the bisque with the Big 6 and would do it again. If it was right for me. Meanwhile, I just deposited a monthly royalty check from Amazon that was bigger than any check any of the Big 6 ever sent me. But I’m open minded and prefer to consider all options available. More importantly, reevaluate when necessary. Because here’s the deal: this is a business.
I’m sick of it. I’ve been chanting this mantra for two years now and I still get attacked. Every writer is in a different situation. Every writer has to evaluate their three Ps: Platform, Product, Promotion. Here’s the blog post on that. It means there is no one path to Oz. Oh wait, blogged about this in my last one just a few days ago.
So let’s stop attacking each other for taking the path we wouldn’t take. Just don’t take it! Stop attacking that person for making what they think is the right decision for them. Its one thing to discuss it, make your point on why you personally would not take that path to Oz. No one is holding a gun to your head and telling you that you must go one way or the other or die. A lot of this started with Amanda Hocking going with St. Martins. Hey, I know the people she’s working with there like Matthew Shearer. Savvy people and nice to boot. All the best to her. Her decision.
Eisler says no to SMP. He says the deal he got with Thomas & Mercer was the best he’s seen, because he’s seen it. You haven’t. I haven’t. And his wife says The Detachment earned out already. So it seems a smart move. For him. That’s the key. Everyone’s move is their own.
Here’s the real bottom line to the ‘raging fuck wads’ on both sides. The day comes the other side offers you a deal, or presents an opportunity that’s good for you, tell me you won’t take it or do it. Then I’ll believe you.
Here’s the reality few are putting out there: for most indie authors putting up backlist, your sales peak, then start sliding down. You realize you need discoverability help. So you sign with Encore or T&M or make some such move. For traditional authors, unless you become a brand name, the day comes when your publisher doesn’t offer a new contract and you scramble to try to sell to another publisher, only to find they’re looking at your previous sales numbers and not your writing. I’ve been on both sides long enough to realize that it’s extremely hard no matter what path you’re treading.
Meanwhile, let’s all have civil discourse and provide information so each writer can discern the best path for him or her.
Wait. It just occurred to me. Maybe we, as writers, should really focus on writing really good books that readers want. Because READERS RULE.
Write It Forward.
Even though you didn’t mean this to be funny, it made me laugh at the inanity of all the opinions everyone has about everything that they know nothing about!!!! Good one, Bob!!!
Readers absolutely rule, and thank you for a call for civility! Writers each have to find the path that’s right for them – for each book, each release, each market. The writing community is filled with awesome people who are amazingly supportive of each other … let’s not lose or forget that! I have writer-friends of all stripes, in all modes of publishing, and I want to keep it that way.
BTW, I keep quoting your line about “if you’re not cheating, you’re not trying hard enough.” – Loved your book and it was a huge inspiration to me!
Well said Bob!! It’s time everyone just calm the heck down and go about their business of writing. It’s not a competition. It’s a personal journey.
I agree that everyone should do whatever they want. I also agree there’s a lot of voices going all-in in each direction. But I think that’s good. We’re in the midst of a revolution now that is changing the game. There’s no denying that. It’s GOOD, no, GREAT news for everyone. Except those publishers that refuse to adapt.
But one thing I just can’t past Bob. Even if you could get a sweet deal with a “traditional” publisher, one that paid you more than 17.5% on your work… Does it really ever make sense to give up the rights to your work? To not be able to own your work? I can’t get past that.
And yes, I only had one traditionally published book done. I cringe every day now thinking about I’d kill to have it back in my hands so I could sell it myself. Or change the title/cover, or break it into two books, or whatever. I can’t. I can’t do anything. They have my by the you know what.
And I’ve yet to see a dime other than the 5-figure signing bonus.
This is something each author has to weigh. Some authors still want what a traditional publisher can give them.
“This is something each author has to weigh. Some authors still want what a traditional publisher can give them.”
Other than a signing bonus, maybe, what can they give them? I’m really asking. What can they give that you can’t do yourself? It used to be the promise of getting placement in book stores. It used to be the editing and proofing. It used to be cover design.
I’m really asking. What can a traditional publisher give you that you can’t do yourself? I list my broken promises from them here. http://www.nopublisherneeded.com/broken-promises/
“I’m really asking. What can a traditional publisher give you that you can’t do yourself?”
Discoverability, as Bob puts it. As NY publishing adapts to changes, they will still be able to purchase promotional space in eBookstores such as Amazon, B&N, etc. Right now, it is very difficult, if not impossible for indie authors to get featured on these sites. Amazon point blank has said, they do not offer paid advertising for indie authors. They do for publishers.
“Discoverability, as Bob puts it. As NY publishing adapts to changes, they will still be able to purchase promotional space in eBookstores such as Amazon, B&N, etc. Right now, it is very difficult, if not impossible for indie authors to get featured on these sites. Amazon point blank has said, they do not offer paid advertising for indie authors. They do for publishers.”
First off, how have NY publishing agencies adopted to changes? I see zero change. Maybe they will now that Amazon is gunning for them, but so far, what changes?
Discoverability is a carrot/stick. I know. The truth is they really have zero control. They talk about “special relationships” with the bookstores, but the reality is they have no influence at all. The bookstores operate on numbers, plain and simple. They maximize profits by stocking books that sell, and don’t take much chance on books that might not sell, to avoid returns.
At least if you went with Amazon as the publisher I’m pretty much guaranteeing they’re going to feature/push your book. Why the heck wouldn’t they?
I’m still waiting for a legit answer. What can a traditional publisher offer you that you can’t do yourself?
Jim, I’m not sure what you mean by legit. Its my opinion and there are some valid reasons why I personally would sign with NY, given the right set of circumstances. There are many others who wouldn’t even consider signing with NY and their reasons are just as legit as mine. Many roads to Oz.
Well let’s hear them Jen. I’m not being facetious. I really want to know. What reasons would cause you to sign legacy? I’ll even help as I can come up with a few.
1. The signing bonus is outrageously generous. (By the way, not going to happen unless you’re proven already, ala Hocking.)
2. You need the personal validation of having a “real” book. Whatever that means. Books are books, period.
3. Having a trad pubbed book will help you with consulting/speaking. This is the ONLY one I buy, because I’ve lived it. The day after my book came out I tripled my consulting fees and got three times more work. Plus my speaking gigs went up considerably. But if you are a fiction writer and don’t do “consulting”, this is not going to help you.
What else? Nobody can provide legitimate answers was my point. Please do.
Jim wrote: “What else? Nobody can provide legitimate answers was my point. Please do.”
My point is that I can’t provide YOU with legitimate answers for YOU. I can only do it for me and to say that no one can provide legitimate answers is in essence saying that anyone who DECIDES NY publishing is for them is in essence not “legit”.
The point here is…many road to OZ. Your decisions are right for you, and you make many valid points. I don’t disagree with them. I just don’t agree that NY has nothing legitimate to offer someone else.
Fair enough. So what are YOUR reasons? Or anyone else. Please share.
Hmmm. Look, I’m on the whole self-pubbing is probably the way to go, but I could see an argument for traditional publishing (if you can swing it.)
I’ve looked at a lot of book bloggers and there are some — particularly the big ones — that will NOT look at self-pubbed books. Period. End of story.
So, in theory at least, I can see an argument that a traditionally published book might help you get more reviews on book blogs, and win you more notice, readers. etc.
Am I saying people should hold off on self-pubbing as a result of this? No, because there are a lot of book bloggers out there that DO look at self-pubs and you make more money on a self-pub book. That said, I can see why — if traditional pubbing is an option — someone would go that direction, at least temporarily, until they can build a big enough audience to go off on their own.
Overall, Bob is saying that there is no “one ” right answer, and he’s clearly right. I personally think self-pubbing is the way to go, but it doesn’t stand to reason that that is always true.
Jim. Sounds like nothing anyone says is going to matter to you. To say that big publishers have shown zero change is off target. You’ve had one traditionally published book, so your experience is limited to that. I’ve had 45. I’ve had a spectrum of experiences with traditional publishers from where I bought back the third book on a three book deal it was bad, to having placement in stores and advertising and hitting the NY Times bestseller list.
To say the Big 6 can’t do anything you can do yourself, is like saying because you own a digital video recorder, so Hollywood has nothing to offer that you can’t do yourself.
Here’s the other truth many in self-publishing don’t point out: most of your successful self-publishers had backlist from traditional publising and some are hybrid authors, with a foot in each camp. Besides all the technical aspects, there are things called editors and agents who know a thing or two about books and how to make them better.
Another key aspect is because self-publishing is an “easy” alternative, there is a tendency to get easy with the writing, knowing that you don’t have to get through the gateway of agent and editor. I’m not saying they’re perfect, but there are some damn good ones out there.
I really wasn’t trying to be an antagonist Bob. I agree with you mostly. I’m simply asking people to give me reasons. But why won’t anyone? I’m really asking. Everyone keeps talking about why it’s a good deal, but nobody is offering reasons. I don’t think that’s asking too much?
Again, let me concede to you and others and say that it’s good for you. Tell me why?
Frankly Jim, because when I gave you one of my reasons for possibly going with a NY publisher you called it a carrot/stick. Its one of MY reasons. And, I would wager that you idea of what is a legit reason and my idea of what a legit reason is very different. Finally, and this is the last thing I will say on the subject, it really does all depend on the deal. I will say no thank you to a deal that does not serve my goals. Simple as that.
I’m sorry I upset you. I didn’t mean to push you. I just really wanted to know because I haven’t been able to get a good answer from anyone. It’s very frustrating to me though to have people tell me why I’m wrong, but not explain why. Of course you don’t have to tell me. I was hoping you would though.
I’ll just have to get over it! I wish you much success.
Not upset. Frustrated, but not upset. There is no right or wrong way. I also don’t have a clear cut reason on what would be a good enough deal for me to sign with NY. I don’t think anyone really does until they see it. For me, its a matter of keeping an open mind and keeping all options open.
Jim, you’re getting tons of answers, you’re just not accepting any of them. Which is fine. Don’t. That’s my point. If you see no upside to traditional publishing than simply don’t pursue it. However, just because you see it that way, doesn’t mean others see it that way.
Ok. I’ve got more opinions at http://www.nopublisherneeded.com if anyone wants to stop by and leave a comment I’d appreciate it.
Frankly, Jim, when you have a blog titled No Publisher Needed, it’s obvious you have an agenda. That’s fine. I think a lot of valid points have been raised, but your mind is set. I don’t think anyone could say anything to you that would make you think a publisher is therefore needed. All the best with it.
Thanks, Bob. Really. THANK YOU. I’ve just been seeing all the language over at Michael Stackpole’s blog (at least he allows comments) and ended up writing a blog post about it. We need more voices of reason. We also need more people telling what’s positive about a traditional publishing deal. All I’m seeing (with very VERY rare exceptions) is the bad stuff: low advances, no promotion, blah, blah, blah. I want someone to talk about the good stuff! Anyway, that’s what my blog post is about. Will be interesting to see what hatred I get when it goes live on Saturday.
Again, thanks! I did laugh. As Joyce said, even if you didn’t mean this to be funny, it make me laugh
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, BOB!!! Thanks for pointing out that each of us need to follow the path that is right for US! What every writer wants and needs is the information those who are ahead of us have so we can make intelligent decisions concerning what is best for us and our writing careers.
I love your statement, and I quote: “Maybe we, as writers, should really focus on writing really good books that readers want. Because READERS RULE.” That should be every writer’s mantra!
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I was offered a contract for $300 to write an article related to my manuscript submission. Moreover, the publisher wanted “all rights” and I could never use my material again. I’d submitted my children’s nonfiction picture book manuscript to many (and constantly disappearing) nonfiction children’s publishers over the past 5 years. Frankly, I’d exhausted my traditional options. My solution was to self-publish. Why? Because the story had to be told and couldn’t wait for an editor to see the world-wide archaeological importance of my story. I made the decision that was right for my situation….and I’m glad I stuck with it. My book is being printed by Thanksgiving 2011. I’m not oblivious to the marketing and promoting ahead of me. (I’ve been a sole proprietor.) Thanks, Bob, for recognizing that everyone has their own situation. Now with better technologies, we have choices. I hope one day a traditional publisher will find my story(ies) compelling enough to publish under their name. Until then, I’m here writing everyday. (Oh, my websites are under development…by none other…than me! My former tech writing skills are coming in handy!) Happy writing!
Traditional publishers are adapting. They have to. So no one quite knows the terms except in the specific contract offered to the specific author. Also, they have an expertise that few have in how to package a book. Also, agents have access to foreign rights and other subrights. One thing I believe in publishing, regardless what route I take or decision I make: nothing is 100% good or 100% bad. There are numerous angles to everything that have to be considered on a case by case basis.
Bob,
I’m disturbed by your attempt to bring rational argument and civility to this discussion. Please wait here while I try to think up a suitable name to call you. (This will take a while. I’m not very bright, but I do believe that all of my choices were right for me and therefore must be right for everyone in all circumstances, always. End of story. Absolutism is really freeing.)
Well said. There’s no reason for writers to attack each other. We’re all just trying to get our stories out there and make a little money if we can. Also, as authors trying to appeal to a wide audience, what purpose is served by alienating anyone?
Can you hear my applause, Bob?
You’ve lasered in on one of the most self-destructive component of the current “publishing revolution”.
For my part, I’ve been a traditionally published writer (more than 20 times, btw), and I am now an indie author. The evolution of publishing and my desire to reach a broader reader audience rules my professional choices.
I believe that READERS RULE!
I write for READERS!
READERS inspire me!
In return, READERS gift me with their support and loyalty as my writing career continues to unfold. End of story.
Thank you!
LT – romantic suspense author
Everyone has an opinion, and I value most, even those I disagree with. Whenever there are two sides, there is controversy. The problem gets worse when each side cares more about being “right” than doing what is right for themselves. I often think that people who fight tooth and nail for their “side” are more worried about their own decision than the decisions of others.
The voice of reason:)…I love it:)…I recently experienced a similar situation. Half of the room in attendance believed in traditional publishing, the other in indie. One lone person stood and tried to offer the concept, that each of us should do what was best for us, personally. She didn’t fare well. I could have told her (from previous experience) that the voice of reason is usually attacked from both sides:)
I agree with your opinion whole-heartedly. We all have to decide which is the best path for us, bearing in mind, the path “could” change. I seldom engage in these word battles…I’m a live and let live gal.
I love the voice of reason though, so here I am, commenting. All change that occurs is difficult, it never comes easy, and there are always strong opinions on both sides. Hopefully, when the dust settles, we’ll have two strong and viable options, with all the kinks basically worked out. Then, we can eat the fish, and leave the bones, on both sides:)
Thanks for sharing, Bob!
Loretta – paranormal thriller author (small press and indie pubbed):)
Honey, let’s face it, it’s the wild wild west out there. I’m about ready to hang up my pen, or keyboard. Frankly, I’ve come to the conclusion that NOTHING works when it comes to discoverability. Which is not even a word, by the way – but I’m sure it will soon be recognized by Webster’s.
Here’s how it looks to me, small fry that I am… either you already have a big name and a big following and a big backlist so therefore self-pubbing ain’t no big thing. What do you (generic you) have to lose?
You are Amanda Hocking who got in on the social networking thing early on, but now that route is as jam-packed with authors social networking as every other route. Or you’ve written a book about how to self-publish and priced it right. Those will sell for sure.
The big publishers are struggling to find a new path – but they ignored niche writers before and they sure can’t afford to pay attention to us now.
The field of Romance is so crowded as to be a joke – because everyone knows Romance is one of the few genres still selling so everyone and his/her dog is writing it, pushing the boundaries as far as they can so as to stand out. Makes me want to bleach my damn brain.
I’m with small indie pubs and I self-pub. Promotion is exhausting and I’m weary of advice such as – let your books be your best marketing tool. Yeah, right. I wish. Who has time to write when you’re busy promoting, building your online presence and platform, and publishing on your own because you don’t have someone, and can’t afford to pay someone, to do it for you? I’m serious about that. It’s very annoying.
When the pace of change is rapid, people fuss. Look at our political system. Oh god, maybe you shouldn’t!” Each author/blogger/publisher thinks he or she knows The Way. No you don’t. You know one way, maybe several, but you haven’t cornered the market on The Way.
I’m disgusted with the entire process right now. I’m thinking of moving to a cave.
This is one of my favorite posts! The introduction of ebooks has changed publishing, and everyone is clamoring to say look at me, look what I did! I’m self published and thrilled that is the path I ultimately chose. But just like everything in the world, you have to choose the path that is right for you, and hope you made a good decision. I hate when people try and tell us what we should or have to do. I completely went against the grain with my book pricing, but I’m very happy with how it’s turned out. Thanks for a great post!
Amazing! I’ve never really understood why writers care how others are doing it beyond deciding if it’s a path they should consider. I’ve set my path, and I won’t burn the bridges to the others, never know when you’ll have to retrace your steps and find a new way to go.
Jim, a traditional publisher can do a lot, but the reality is that unless you are one of their brand authors, they don’t do much for you. Ten percent of their authors earn 90% of their revenue so that is where they put their marketing focus. They give an opportunity and they do have special relationships with bookstores (where they also buy co-op space) and on-line retailers where they can get their books featured.
Julia, I understand where you’re coming from, but in a way you’ve pointed out how the field will narrow out over the years. Note, I say years. A big problem many self-publishers have (and even many trad authors) is a lack of long-range planning. They key to success in any endeavor, as I teach in Write It Forward, is setting a single, strategic long term goal, then doing everything you can to achieve. What happens is that many people do get disgusted and quit. Often, the person who succeeds is the one who didn’t quit when all common sense indicated they should have long ago.
Oh, I’m in it for the long-haul, Bob, if I live that long! This business is going to take years to sort out and in fact, may remain in flux for, well, generations as technology continues to evolve.
I really, really believe in what Bob just said:
“Often, the person who succeeds is the one who didn’t quit when all common sense indicated they should have long ago.”
Strangely enough, it reminds me of my favorite quote from Konrath: “There’s a word for a writer who doesn’t give up… published.”
I sympathize with what Julia is saying — and I just started pubbing two months ago! I spend virtually all my free time promoting my book or actually doing my real job rather than writing the next book. I don’t know if I will ever break out. I do know this: if I quit, then for SURE I will never break out. The only way to lose is to give up.
I couldn’t agree more, Bob. The guys who are name-calling back and forth probably aren’t doing what they purportedly got into this business for in the first place – to write!
I think the best thing that Indie publishing has done is loosen up the purse strings of the traditional publishers a bit in order to get their hands on the good stuff. It’s getting harder to take authors for a ride if the authors have other options that could be more lucrative. It also gives a powerful publishing option for niche marketers.
My first book would make me lots more money if I were selling it myself before my publisher, who’s doing little marketing of the book anyway, weren’t taking a nice chunk of the profits. They want me to market the book. I figure if I’m going to do that, then what am I paying them to do?
Indie options give me another way to take a small circulation book and maximize the profits on it. If you’re doing workshops or something where you sell your own books, it’s a whole lot more fun to clear 50% on the book than 15%.
Tom
FWIW, when SFWA opposed the flat fee Star Wars contracts, several Star Wars authors were involved. A Star Wars author (A. C. Crispin) was SFWA’s Eastern Regional Director at the time.
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Still unpublished, but working on education and story telling. Thanks to you, I know there are choices out there, and I heard you when you wrote for a first timer, traditional publishing can be the best way to go. if NY likes something I’ve written, I wouldn’t say no, and I’d still do my best to market the book. I understand the predicament that the bottom line dictates, again thanks to your excellent blog. If my first manuscript got picked up by NY, I’ll be thrilled, and not be so concerned about my money as long as the Publishing House didn’t loose. Then, just get on with writing the next stories. Yes, there is something for everyone to examine.
I believe that the critiques on both sides are totally missing the point. The awesome thing about where publishing currently stands and is evolving, is giving authors a choice. There isn’t just one road to take, how cool is that. We should be celebrating each others writing and respecting whatever path an author chooses. For unknown authors like me it equals the playing field. Instead of depending on knowing someone in publishing, I have several options for sharing my writing with the world. Look at the music industry, they started this metamorphosis earlier. Great music is great music and it floats to the top. As we dive headlong into the electronic medium, the access is what is incredible. As a reader the choices for what I read and listen to aren’t controlled by the few. Just like cable has done to television. Remember when having a cable program was akin to “not making it in television.” We are no longer controlled by a few gatekeepers that control what we see, hear or read. That’s what we should be celebrating!! Hurray for choice!
I really don’t understand how folks on one publishing road can take such personal affront to people doing things the other way or those who choose to switch roads. Each person has to go with what right for him or her. And what’s right can change too. Folks need to respect the choices of others.
BRAVO! Well said.
Pamela– great point. I think it’s the best time ever to be a writer, because you can do so many things on your own now that you couldn’t do before. Distribution to bookstores was the chokepoint. It isn’t. Discoverability is an issue, but the internet also helps with that.
My first book was published, traditionally, in 1991. It’s never been a better time to be a writer than the present.
Amen Bob.
Hopefully not to be too far off topic but I have a question. FYI – I am as yet unpublished. My question is this concerning the writer who is indie or trad published and sales have dropped off. How does one overcome that? How would you get trad publishing houses to look at your work instead of your past numbers? And I ask for info/strategies from both angles. Thanks for any who take the time.
Note of clarification: Bob mentions it in his post.
For the traditional publisher you have to hope your publisher gets behind you and supports you through the dip. However, that is rare.
For self-publishing, you produce more books. You continue to work at promoting. And you band together as we did with Readers Rule.
Thank you for this! There are a lot of people who REALLY need to read this post! The people that are so busy criticizing others for their personal and professional decisions need to stop and reinvest their time in their own writing.
Hi Bob,
I’ve not met you yet, but I like you already.
It’s always refreshing when someone talks common sense and tears down the walls (that are not really there in the first place, except people with agendas just keep throwing them back up and insisting that they are there).
Best lines in this post:
Ever notice no one ever writes a letter to the editor about what they, themselves, should stop doing or not do? It’s always the other person needs to stop doing what we disapprove of.
On the other hand, once we put things out into the internet, we reap what we sow.
But I’m open minded and prefer to consider all options available. More importantly, reevaluate when necessary. Because here’s the deal: this is a business.
Every writer is in a different situation. Every writer has to evaluate their three Ps: Platform, Product, Promotion.
So let’s stop attacking each other for taking the path we wouldn’t take.
If you really want to focus and not have distractions, stop cursing at people publicly and just write.
…I could not possibly agree more with all of the above.
Thank you, thank you, thank you for recommending civility and respect for each other’s individual decisions about their own personal writing career. Creative enterprises such as writing, publishing and selling books are going to be very different for each person, and thank goodness we have the modern publishing world that is so full of alternatives. Shouldn’t we all be happy that these alternatives exist? Maybe we should even celebrate it? But, sadly, vitriol aimed at other people isn’t limited to the publishing world. It seems that people can’t discuss almost anything these days and remain respectful of opinions that are different than their own, learn from those different opinions and simply enjoy the conversation. What is up with that? I miss having lengthy discussions about all sorts of topics that don’t eventually devolve into someone insulting someone else and/or screaming at them. I suspect much of this is because the world is changing so rapidly, many people feel threatened and want things to settle down into some kind of conformity where the unknown can be a bit more predictable, and they’ll fight for everyone to conform to their own worldview. Ironically, conformity is usually anathema to creative types.
I have one quibble with this excellent post, regarding agents as publishers. There really does seems to be an ethical line getting crossed here–and possibly a legal one (but that determination is for brighter minds than my own). Just because a bunch of authors are happy with their agents as publishers doesn’t make it right. Passive Guy has a lot of good information on this. As an IP lawyer, I think he adds an important, and balanced, voice to the discussion. No name calling over there.
http://www.thepassivevoice.com
I’ve read that post and many others about the issue of agents being publishers. I even have a blog post here on it where I discuss the real issue isn’t even whether they should be, but whether they can be. The learning curve for Jen and I to build Who Dares Wins Publishing was steep over the past two years. Just slapping the label of publisher on, doesn’t make it work.
I’m not a lawyer so as far as the ethical issue, I can’t comment. On a case by case basis I see some agents doing it and just don’t think it’s a good idea and others doing it somewhat differently and providing services to their clients or doing other things that I see a reason for. So again, it’s the old: investigate closely and make your own decision.
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‘So let’s stop attacking each other for taking the path we wouldn’t take. Just don’t take it! Stop attacking that person for making what they think is the right decision for them. Its one thing to discuss it, make your point on why you personally would not take that path to Oz. No one is holding a gun to your head and telling you that you must go one way or the other or die. A lot of this started with Amanda Hocking going with St. Martins. Hey, I know the people she’s working with there like Matthew Shearer. Savvy people and nice to boot. All the best to her. Her decision.’
Hi Bob,
LOVE this paragraph! There’s too much of this going on for my liking. Personally I would never attack another person for choosing a different path to the one I have chosen; we’re all different and people should respect that. I appreciate there are pros and cons to each side.
And one more thing – I think people should be nice to each other whenever possible. That’s not to say we can’t have different opinions but all people should be respectful to one another without directly slagging them off.
Well said and so true. Always a pleasure to see truth in print.
Amen to this post! I was just talking to my friend who is trad pubbed the other day, and she’s been seriously considering self-pubbing because of the stories she’s heard, including mine, where there has been a measure of success doing it yourself. But as we talked it over, we basically came to the same conclusion as you just blogged about. Right now, for her, staying on the trad path is the best thing to do. And until that changes, there’s no sense in upsetting the apple cart.
Everyone’s path to success is different, and though we all write because it’s something we have to do (or at least I do), I still look at the bottom line. I want to make money doing this thing that I have to do. So I write books that are targeted specifically for the audience I’ve built as a self-pub, and I write books that I turn into my agent that she’s still sending out on submission. And if I got a great offer tomorrow from a big 6 publisher or Amazon, I’d take it. If the offer was less than what I knew it would make if I put it out there myself, then I’d do that. Sometimes the need to keep being right and not admit when your wrong is stronger than common sense.
Like you said, JUST WRITE.
Some sobering thoughts, Bob. Love the “Walking Dead attack” analogy. So true. Interesting discussion above, and pretty civil, IMO.
Readers DO rule. Though they are as varied as we are. Thank goodness. I hope to be eligible for your new organization one day.
Well-stated as always, Bob. Thank you for a moment of sanity and clarity in an otherwise overwhelming flame-war! It’s always confusing to me to see otherwise effective writers go into rant mode… and painfully embarassing when they rant against their own “tribe members.”
Well said. I actually have no problem with being an indie fuck wad because I am new and that is the only road open to me at the moment. It is not my religion. I like to write and I have ideas that I want to share with 10 or 10,000 no matter. The loudest shouters of dogma are usually trying to convince themselves and in the end they always prove the case against themselves.
Great post.
D. M. Kenyon
Great post and great comments. One of the most important and the most telling points, I think, is: Here’s the Real Bottom Line to the “Raging F__ Wads” on both sides.
And that is that if the best option for writers becomes the “other side”–either traditional or indie–at some point in the future, we’ll want to have kept that option open and not have alienated everyone.
You want to write and you want to sell–because you want to write–and there are more options open to you in many ways than ever before. Let’s embrace the change, and the options. And despite our fears about the changes, it might be best to try to keep things civil.
Thanks for that voice of reason, Bob!!
you’re absolutely right and I also laughed. You never know what you’re going to do until you’re in a situation and shouldn’t judge others. Even if they choose something that isn’t what you want, it may be the right thing for them.
Although I plan to release my book independently, should I get an offer that included decent money and experts in things like design, editing and promotion, I’m pretty sure I would leap at it. Much as I appreciate the aspect of full control (should those who know me read this, they would no doubt be rolling their eyes – I’m a little bit of a control freak), I would much rather get back to writing my next book instead of dealing with all the business details. I know it’s all worth it in the end, but right now I’m sort of frustrated (dammit Jim, I’m a writer, not a business person!). And I’m feeling exception of the stupid .Which is probably a healthy lesson.
Some people can’t feel good about themselves unless they’re criticizing someone else. The indie vs. traditional arguments have gotten ridiculous, and I have to say that it has turned me off from BOTH camps. At this moment, I’m not sure I want to pursue being published AT ALL. I’m just focusing on my writing for now without worrying about publishing options.
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Thanks for the voice of reason, Bob. As Tawny Stokes mentioned, this is a personal journey and we each have to make our own way. Just as none of us would like the same work or the same spouse or the same house, so to with our journey to publishing.
Could you re-write this post for politicians? I think we’re all sick of their posturing and positions as well.
Bob
Thank you for an intelligent post that brought us out of the woodsheds.
I muddled making this choice. I had two different
books completed & two different publishers (midlist) send contracts
(unagented). One is a poetry interactive book – I signed because the
audience is specific & needs the trad house.
The other I didn’t want to give erights and they would not budge.
@ Jim Kukral No trad pub. takes an unknown author on and promises
more than $1500 of promotion- the math is not there. It costs about
$19000 to produce a hardback version (editors, salaries, rent, electricity,
illustration, management, legal …) They probably need to sell 20000
copies to Break Even (not make money) These sales need to happen
in the first 60 days of release to have a prayer of no returns and to
make money- as they are not doing this for anything but business.
It is expected, that any author who wants to live on their work to do
most of the promotion, sorry but I love being an artist, but poetry
doesn’t buy shoes for my children.
What trad offers: label, knowledge of branding, legal (huge because
your work will be pirated 100 times in the coming year), status, speaking,
teaching job if you want it, the label alone in the book on the shelf can sell
the book- if Knopf was my label a reader might purchase with that push, I
use the work push not lightly because a tweet from Simon and S might
have thousands more readers than my tweet, they also offer foot in the door-
go to an indie or even B&N and bring them your book with the trad label it
is different than indie. B&N won’t stock indie because of returns and often
the counter won’t even order it for a paying reader. trad can get reviews
with advance reader copies that indie can not today.
So why did I not sign trad for the second book? A personal choice, I will
on the next one when I sell the heck out of those I have up. Sorry so long winded Bob xx00
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Great post. Smart authors will leave all doors open. If a publisher or agent can do more for you than you can do for yourself, work with them. Authors have more options and more freedom than ever before.
I agree that more civility would be helpful in these discussions and debates. Part of the problem is simply that writers are a passionate bunch. Add in that people have so much invested both financially and emotionally that sometimes it’s hard to be objective. Upfront money, marketing push, credibility (not simply for my ego but with readers who’ve never heard of me) and better chances to sell subsidiary rights are just a few reasons I’d entertain an offer from a big house. But the reality is it’s so hard to get anywhere with New York and I’ve come to believe the vast majority of writers have a better shot going it alone in the current markeplace.
A very entertaining post! I’m sick of the overly schismatic rhetoric, too! Let’s all just support each other. When someone else’s good fortune becomes our failure, things are out of line.
I had no idea folks were getting vile about it. Well, the world is in turmoil; lots of old dinosaurs are dying. I guess the futility of getting angry is not understanding that it will CONTINUE to change!!
As others have noted, very entertaining post.
” don’t think slaves signed a contract or got paid or sat around in pajamas and typed.”- Bob Mayer
Yes we did! We wrote Mandingo! But we had to keep picking cotton because we couldn’t make money writing! Cheap White folk!
–Kunte Kinte & Fidler